What is Seattle's best dive bar?: Today So Far

The definition of a dive bar depends on who you ask, and perhaps which city you're in. Bill Radke has taken a dive into the term "dive bar."

This post originally appeared in KUOW's Today So Far newsletter for March 7, 2023.

What is your favorite Seattle dive bar?

Before you answer that, consider the latest "Words in Review" with KUOW's Bill Radke. This week, Radke dives into the term "dive bar," which he argues been watered down from its true meaning. This issue is not exclusive to Seattle, but it does feel like a lot of bars, and patrons, tend to throw this term around a lot.

I would argue that there is a range of factors that could add up to a dive bar, and "it depends" is probably the best answer to whether or not a bar is a dive. Beyond that, the modern hype for the dive bar may speak to something larger that Seattle is searching for amid its current evolution.

"I think a dive bar is kind of implied in the name, that it's below society. A dive and its customers are both kind of desperate. It's not a place where the well-heeled gathered to watch sports for example or sing karaoke," Tom Flynn told Radke.

Flynn, who started working in his dad's bar at the age of 10 and tended bar through his 20s, said that when "dive" was previously attached to a bar, it implied a certain desperation. Or as Radke puts it: "I think of a dive bar as doing the absolute minimum to keep its liquor license and keep the doors open. They're not fixing the broken hand dryer in the men's room."

I think I know what Bill and Flynn are talking about. Come with me to a bar in downtown Portland, many years ago. This hole-in-the-wall (you seriously could miss it if you blinked) was around the corner from a bookstore I worked at. While it was open early in the day, I caught the after-hours crowd. The sidewalk punks would bring their pit bull in for a beer after a hard day's panhandling. The culinary offerings were limited to bags of chips and jerky. In the restroom, next to the operational toilet, was a hole in the bare concrete floor where another toilet was supposed to be installed — to this day, I do not know if that hole was truly capped off, I was too scared to look. This was a dive bar to the standards of Radke and Flynn. A bar akin to this one would not be found on this recent list of "The absolute best dive bars in Seattle."

"There is not a dive bar on the list, under the classic definition," Mike Lewis told me. "Jupiter is a great example; nice places are referred to as a 'dive' (on that list)."

Indeed, if you consider Jupiter Bar a "dive," then I assume your standard pub has a dress code and your credit score must be approved at the door. Bill has his bar expert, and I have Mike Lewis — a former Seattle PI reporter who purchased the local journalist bar after the newspaper hit hard times. Now, he operates the Streamline Tavern.

"I think the Streamline absolutely was (a dive bar) back in the old location ... now, it is characterized as one, but from my old-guy interpretation, it's more of a really good neighborhood pub than a dive bar," Lewis said, further noting that the Streamline doesn't have people asleep on their stools, or other classic dive bar characteristics (I would further note that the Streamline has great tacos, which also wouldn't be included among many definitions of a dive bar).

The definition of a dive bar depends on who you ask. Personally, I would consider many places around Seattle as dives, places where the lights are kept low to hide stains on the carpet, or with scrawl on bathroom walls that cannot be repeated here, or with cans of beer for those on a tight budget. Someone actually made a list of dive bars on Wikipedia, which is very heavy on Seattle and Portland locations. I don't know if it's a good thing that I can say I've been to many of these places and can therefore comment that many are not dive bars. My name is on the wall at Holman's in Portland for being part of its whiskey club — not a dive. My grandma was a regular at Joe's Cellar, where I don't think sunlight has entered in decades — dive. Linda's on Capitol Hill has a brunch menu — not a dive. An old lady, and self-proclaimed psychic, read my palm (without me asking) at the Blue Moon in Seattle's U District, before sort of passing out — dive. If you ask Radke, Flynn, or Lewis, such assessments may vary. Lewis argues that times change and modern patrons often call regular, neighborhood pubs "dives."

"The meaning has stretched," he said. "Now it's become something that people want to put in their description of their bar, whereas when I was young, you didn't want (dive) anywhere near the description of your bar, if you cared about your bar."

"I think the term has changed and evolved, the same way 'geek' and 'nerd' were absolutely insults when I was young, and now they are a point of pride," Lewis said. "Now it's become sort of a term of endearment for everything ranging from neighborhood bars and hipster bars that call themselves 'dive bars.'"

So what has changed? Why have dive bars gone from disreputable, seedy places to desirable hangs?

Flynn has one theory: People have a "desire for authenticity, for kind of tasting the other side or 'slumming it' — that's what we used to call it in the '80s and '90s, 'We're gonna go slumming to the local dives.'"

Authenticity? There is a romanticized version of Seattle that many people hold in their minds, whether they are newcomers or long-time locals. I don't think this version is "slumming it," but I do find conversations about what the city has lost quite common (there are even social media pages dedicated to "vanishing" Seattle). Along with the rise of glass office towers and high salaries, comes an ostentatious vibe, or what I would call "highfalutin fancy pants." It's felt every time a person is looking for a simple, decent apartment and has to scan past countless ads for high-priced new "luxury" apartments. It's the news that the required salary to afford a Seattle home jumped from $141,000 in 2021 to $205,000 in 2022. It's watching artists and locals pushed out of town. It's the overheard, loud conversation from a booth at Shorty's about choosing between working for Goldman Sachs or Chase, depending on who offers the better six-figure salary (true story). The standard for a dive bar has risen with the city — Seattle has changed. And perhaps that has left some people with a "desire for authenticity" as Flynn said. Where is authentic Seattle among all these changes?

This means that when a person steps into a regular, neighborhood pub, without any boutique accoutrement, custom cocktails and graffiti art, or any attempts to be hip, it suddenly becomes hip through its genuine nature. It's a fresh breath of "this must be where real Seattleites hung out through the days of yore; it's as if I can see Kurt Cobain, Sir-Mix-A-Lot, Martin Crane, and the cast of Almost Live! out of the corner of my eye!" Perhaps there is a desire to hold onto Seattle's grit amid our times of change.

"And that is why bars that aren't really dive bars want to claim that moniker," Lewis told me. "That's like wearing an old Nirvana t-shirt to say, 'I was there when...'"

"Low is a matter of how high your perspective is .... I retain my right as a cranky old guy to wish it still had its old definition."

Maybe this is why I refer to my main Seattle bar as a "dive," despite there being no signs of "desperation" in there ... and there is a lovely patio.

Check out Bill's full segment on the term "dive bar" here. Do you have some thoughts about dive bars? Radke wants to hear them. You can email him at bradke@kuow.org.

And if you want to nominate any bars for the title of "dive," feel free to send me an email at dyer@kuow.org.

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DID YOU KNOW?

What is the oldest bar in Seattle? That's a tricky question. The Seattle PI noted in 2019 that various bars claim to be the "oldest" in the city, including the J&M Cafe, the Central Saloon, the Merchant's Cafe and Saloon (all in Pioneer Square), and Georgetown's Jules Maes Saloon.

Folks can get nitpicky about the details. The Pioneer Square locations were all established after the great fire, so a lot of businesses sprung up right around 1889. The Jules Maes Saloon claims to have started in 1888. The PI concluded that the true "oldest bar" in Seattle may never be know since good records were never kept, and history has been lost as building and business ownerships changed over the years. Still, each location features a sign that states "oldest."

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