Mayor Durkan: "We are not about making tweaks, we are really about reimagining"

Seattle Mayor Jenny Durkan on reimagining the Seattle Police Department and what to do about the West Seattle bridge.

This is an edited transcript of Marcie Sillman's conversation with Seattle Mayor Jenny Durkan on Thursday, July 16, 2020.

We're going to start with a lightning round, yes and no. Are you ready?

No. Just kidding, of course I'm ready.

In your request [to a King County judge] to reconsider [a recall petition against the mayor] -- there were actually a slew of different measures before that judge -- but you said, and I quote, you have no legal or constitutional duty to prescribe policies and procedures for the Seattle Police Department. As the mayor, do you have the right to prescribe these policies?

So it's not a yes or no question. The short answer is the city charter gives that duty and authority to the chief of police. It's one of the very few department directors that is addressed in the city charter itself and the duties put in the charter. And specifically gives the chief of police the duty and authority to issue specific policies and regulations.

So that's a no, then. You're saying you don't have the right to prescribe the policies?

Two things I want to say is, number one, recall very much is ... they want to make sure that it isn't just used to settle political differences. But just broadly, I have the enormous privilege of serving as mayor of Seattle because almost 60% of the voters said they wanted me to be mayor. If at some point down the road the voters decide they don't want me to be mayor, that's democracy.

And in the meantime, I'm not focused on court actions or petitions. I'm focused on the fact that we are in unprecedented waters in our city. We are in the midst of a global epidemic that now is getting worse. We're back at the place where we were at the end of March.

We are in the most devastated economic times in our city's history, literally. And we have an enormous civil rights movement on our streets here and across America, and a real reckoning that we have to deal with. That's where I'm going to focus my energies as mayor, is to really address those and do everything I can for the people of Seattle. I won't get distracted by litigation, or anything else.

Jeannie in Ballard: I am a PCO [precinct committee officer] in the 36th district. We held a vote last night on a resolution calling for Mayor Durkan's resignation. It did pass, but the vote was very close. So I wanted her to know that she does have support and I am currently a supporter. At the meeting, one of the proponents of the resolution stated emphatically that according to our city charter, she is in charge of the police. My question is would Mayor Durkan, please detail your challenge that you are not specifically unable to override police actions?

I want to make very clear that I think [Police Chief] Carmen Best is a national leader on these issues, and she made decisions that I think were difficult decisions at an unprecedented time and I support her in her decisions.

And I think that the charter specifically gives management up to the chief of police, but obviously she and I are always talking. And there's ways that the mayor will work with, and sometimes have to direct any department director. So I do want to say thank you for the support.

And again, I believe that when you have a job to do, you have to focus on it. And people disagree right now. We're at a very, very difficult time in our city and across this nation where there is probably some of the most heated political debate I've ever seen. And sometimes that becomes particularly personal, sometimes it becomes divisive, and sometimes it's just good for the system. I think it's a really positive thing, for example, that we have protests in the street, all across this country, and that those protesters are pushing us to be better as a city, a state, and a nation. That is the best of America. It doesn't mean that everything we see in the streets is the best of America, but that kind of dissent and debate, whether it's in a democratic precinct office, or on the streets, or at the ballot box, is part of who we are.

And so I welcome it. It's not always comfortable, I will admit it. But look, I've got a job to do. I'm going to do it to the best of my ability. I don't think we've ever faced this constellation of challenges in our cities before. No one mayor, no one city, no one chief of police is going to get everything right. But we've got the obligation to act and try to get as much right as we can.

I guess they always say that hindsight is 2020. But when you look back at the armored, very militaristic response to what you've just said was the right for people to protest in the streets, might you have done it differently?

Chief Best and I have talked about what that balance is, and going forward how you change the profile.

You saw that not just here in Seattle, but you saw it across the nation. And on the one hand, there was the very real fact that there were police officers who had things thrown at them. There were a number of police injuries, not just here, but across the country. And so having some protective gear on officers who are standing and getting that kind of punishment, also has to be taken into consideration.

But how do you when you have these kinds of protests of this level, actually have a different way to address, so that people who are protesting lawfully, don't get caught up in what were some disproportionate crowd management techniques. And there's no question about it. We have an obligation to deescalate, our police department does. We have an obligation to use proportionate force. And so I think that there's going to be a real deep discussion on that.

And I will say I want to thank the civilian oversight boards, both CPC, the OPA, and the OIG. They're looking at these issues, systemically to try to give the chief and I their recommendations. The federal court and federal court monitor and the Department of Justice are going to be reviewing it.

And I also am working with the US Conference of Mayors -- normally you would have a national panel, looking for national standards formed by the White House or the Department of Justice, that leadership is obviously absent here -- so the US Conference of Mayors has formed a special committee to see if we can get some better best practices nationwide so that police departments in these kinds of crowd management and protest situations don't have that militaristic approach. And don't have these crowd control techniques like tear gas, really impacting people who are there lawfully protesting.

Kate in Queen Anne: A broad coalition of community groups has asked that the city defund the police by 50% and reinvest in community driven alternatives like public health and social programs. But your proposed cuts right now for SPD are less than 20% of their 2021 budget. And you've not committed to reinvestment in community programs. The police are often asked to handle situations that they have inadequate training for which leads to a potential for tragic outcomes on both sides, police and community. It's a win win situation having money divested from SPD and reinvested in social and public health community solutions. Do you support this paired ask of divestment and reinvestment? Thus far, you've only committed to small tweaks to the current policing model, how will that approach bring robust changes to a racist and unjust policing system that plagues the city of Seattle?

First, the last part is is actually not accurate. Neither the chief or I have proposed small tweaks. We are in the process right now of going through the department, top to bottom, to reimagine what parts of policing should actually be done by armed police officers, and what parts could be done either by other civilian organizations, or by community based organizations.

And we started that process this week, when we proposed that we will be moving out, for example, the 911 call center, the parking enforcement, and parts of the department that don't have to be done by law enforcement.

So we need to make sure that the organization itself reflects what we believe, which is there are some jobs that a police officer can do and needs to do. And when people call 911, sometimes they need a police officer there and they need them immediately. But other times they need a different kind of help. They may need a mental health counselor, they may need addiction specialists, they may need someone that knows the family. We don't have that kind of capacity in place right now, and we need to build it.

So what the chief and I have said is, it's irresponsible to simply cut away duties and not have the resiliency and resources in the community to make sure you have something in their place. So we are not about making tweaks, we are really about reimagining.

And we've already started that in Seattle. We've launched our Health One, which is when a firefighter and a social worker show up instead of a police officer when there's a call to 911 about someone with some low acuity problems, usually someone homeless experiencing behavioral health issues. Before, cops would show up, and they only had two choice:, take them to jail or take them to Harborview [hospital]. Now we have a medical harm reduction model to deal with that. We know how to do this.

We've got organizations in the communities who are very good at knowing what community needs, but we're going to need a cadre of people available 24/7 in every part of our city so that when someone calls 911, they can get the help they need and they can get it immediately.

The first part of Kate's question was, do you support divestment and reinvestment? Are you saying yes to that?

Yes, and we've already started that process. What we've said, though, is I will not ... at this point, we have no plan to have an adequate policing with 50%. And the chief and I made very clear that based on her analysis right now, that would severely impact our ability to provide police services and public safety to every part of the city. We would not be able to do that. And so the 50% target number is arbitrary.

What I think you need to do is, what is the job you want police to do? And then really think about, is that a job for a police officer with a gun? And if so, how much is that going to cost to have that response available 24/7 in every part of our city? Which is required under city charter. And for those other jobs, how quickly can we build up enough support and community?

And then the third prong is community investments. I have said, and I'm hoping the city council will stand with me, that I will invest at least 100 million new dollars in community for the very investments that we need to be making. Because a healthy community needs police less. They need mental health services less, they need those whole range of things that we need to be building right now. And so the first thing is, let's have a healthy community that has the help it needs built into the community by really broad-based investments in public health, and education, and opportunity. And then let's make sure that when they do have to call 911, we can say what help do you need? And that help comes.

You told us last week that you are committed to speaking to a diversity of community groups and community members and you are in the process of figuring out how to set that up. So have you done that yet? And if so, how do these community groups contact you?

Yeah, we are in the process. We're going to probably have a range of things. We don't have an announcement yet, but we will soon. But I'm also trying to be very mindful that a lot of the work, particularly about where investments need to be made, have to be community-based and community led. And so we'll have both me into the public getting input but then trying to set up ... [unintelligible].

Vicky in Belltown: On last week's show, Mayor Durkin, you were asked to provide insight into who and how you are meeting with representatives of the community and you mentioned meeting with those representatives. Specifically, King County Equity Now coalition, as an example. At a livestream in July, it actually shows a majority of attendees stating they were not invited to that meeting. I am asking you to explain that discrepancy between you saying you're reaching out ...

We have a whole range of meetings and never have attempted to invite everybody to every meeting. Some of those individuals showed up in the meeting and wanted to participate. And we said of course, and some of those individuals had been in previous meetings, and some will be in future meetings.

And for example, some of the people representing King County Equity, I've met with numerous times over the last two years and the city's made deep investments into many of the projects. For example, Africatown's Wyking Garrett has met with myself, my deputy mayor's multiple times, our city's invested significant resources as we should into that project and not just in the project itself, but into the Black-owned businesses that will be located there that are such an essential part of it.

So not every meeting will be live streamed. I have meetings where people prefer that it not be public in any way. They want to have the conversation in a quiet and respectful manner. And I respect that.

Obviously, I'm a public official, and we're subject to Public Records Act and the like, but I think at this time my obligation is to try to hear from as many people as possible and it isn't very productive usually to have everybody in one meeting.

Skip in Lake City: If there isn't substantial money put into deescalation training, if there isn't that sort of training given to our police department we're in for real trouble. I was at the CHOP and I saw a bicycle charge through the crowd the morning after the shooting, standing by, watching. I wasn't part of CHOP, I just a citizen trying to get my own eyes on what was going on because I couldn't get it from the news. And when I saw made me sick.

Michelle in Ballard: I was wondering when they're considering closing down Ballard Avenue to allow bars and restaurants to serve people in the streets. The current policy doesn't have enough space on the sidewalks for people to safely eat there and be able to also pass by. Our businesses are really struggling right now and really need to take advantage of the summer weather in order to increase their business.

I'm actually meeting with Sam Zimbabwe [SDOT head] today and one of the things we'll talk about is, how that program is working and what things we can do to continue to support our businesses.

We want people to be able to sit outside as much as possible. The data is pretty clear that outside dining is going to be much safer than inside dining. And so to support our small businesses, we need to do that. But at the same time, we know there's competition for the sidewalk and streets. So I don't have that full answer to you right now. But I will talk to Sam Zimbabwe, and we hope to get something out not just for Ballard, but for Capitol Hill and other areas where we are getting the same question.

And it's difficult because a number number of people rely on those sidewalks and people with disabilities can't go around and into the streets, but yet the streets themselves sometimes are needed for other purposes. But I know Ballard has been particularly challenging and we'll look into that and feed back to you.

The Americans with Disabilities Act requires that the sidewalks be made accessible to people who have different kinds of abilities and so we really are working at crosspurposes here. What realistically can you do?

And that's why we try to look business district by business district and are shutting down some roads and streets and making them pedestrian ways so that there's more space. And looking at even in some places having blocks closed and maybe shared table space.

This is all new territory to everybody. So it's it's hard to adjust to the coronavirus and the needs, and as I said our numbers are really going in the wrong direction. There's almost as high as they were at the end of March. Very concerned. Talking to the governor and the county executive about whether you know, we don't want to have to go backwards because we think having businesses is so important for workers and the business owners.

So we're going to be looking at other restrictions in other places, so that we can keep those businesses open. But having those businesses open then puts pressure in other places.

Earlier today, you declared a civic emergency for the West Seattle high rise bridge. What exactly do you want from state and federal government?

This is a really important step that we had to take because in order for us to get some of the resources we need from the state and federal government going forward, we will be better off if there is a declared emergency. And we're looking at every avenue we can.

I was happy to hear Patty Murray on your program before I was there, because she's been just such a stalwart supporter of our region and mobility.

The West Seattle bridge is critical for freight mobility to support so we are looking to get all sorts of resources there. It also gives us the ability to move more quickly when there's an emergency, so that we can hopefully get whatever repairs and/or if we need to rebuild the bridge, we can do it as quickly as possible. So that declaration of emergency gives us a lot of tools moving forward.

But we recently learned that the lower bridge, which was the alternative, also has structural problems. So is it safe to be used as an alternative pathway for buses? And can you keep it open during this other process?

It is right now. My hats off to the SDOT crew that is out there managing those bridges. They put some instrumentation on the bridge, and so we're able to detect the cracks. They've been working with the federal authorities and bridge engineers to make sure they're managing in the right way.

We have to watch the load on that bridge, because if we lose that bridge, we lose all mobility over that corridor. So we're going to be cautious about that and make sure we stay on top of it. But at this juncture, we believe that it can take a load, but we're going to have to be reassessing on a regular basis what kind of load it can take over what period of time.

I know that the water taxi that goes from downtown Seattle to West Seattle is under the county's jurisdiction. Is there some way that we can augment that service?

We're looking at that. We're looking at even having additional, like a parked barge, that can serve as a place for taxis to pull up into because we've used the dock space over there.

We're also looking at moving some of the water taxis further down the pier to have more water traffic coming from West Seattle. We looked at the ferry boat coming from Fauntleroy around but because of the speed restrictions, it's probably not practical. So we are we are looking at any waterborne method we can to get people to and from West Seattle.

Governor Inslee is scheduled to speak again this afternoon about the situation with the rising coronavirus cases. Do you have any idea what he's gonna say? Can you give us a preview?

I think he'll say that we're as a state and region, we're moving in the wrong direction. We're going to have to continue looking at whether there's additional restrictions that have to be put in place.

I don't know if the governor will address this, but we've hit a huge roadblock in the city of Seattle. We've put up our own testing facilities. They've been enormously successful and popular. We've tested over 50,000 people at the city of Seattle's testing sites. But in order for the test to be processed in the lab, they need a chemical called a reagent. Well, there are now a shortage of that reagent. And it's going to affect our abilities to do testing here in the city of Seattle.

So we're back to the drawing board, looking for more options, and calling ... once again, we can mobilize our production in America to make enough reagent to keep America safe.